Given the major role that BL land claims are playing in the game at present, the Times will begin covering the issue as a news and opinion topic, and will also create informational resources about land claims for players to access. We will also begin to accept editorials from Illyriad gamers on a wide range of topics.
In our first guest post, anti-land claimer ajqtrz frames his arguments for how in-game actions between players should conform to real-life, societal standards, and how enforcement of land claims as a rule violate these standards. The thoughts and ideas expressed by AJ in this editorial are entirely his own, and do not express the position or opinion of the Times or any of its staff, and the editors will seek a rebuttal editorial on this issue.
Sometimes out of the sparks of debate a fire is started that lights our way, or burns us, depending upon our desire for civility. So, in the spirit of civility here is what I think the whole thing is about, and why it’s important.
The debate in which we have been engaged, I believe, centers around very simple question: “If the players of Illyriad are real people, how SHOULD we treat them? If they are not real people then it, obviously, does not matter, as they are only “pixels on the page.” But if they are real people then should they not be treated the same as we OUGHT to treat people with whom we deal face to face?
How do you treat those you meet face to face? Or more to the point, how SHOULD you treat them? You can answer that for yourself, but generally speaking most people would say they try to treat people with respect. As much as possible we respect each other. We respect each other rights, and we respect each other goals and aspiration. This respect is not perfect, but it is a goal, and a worthy one at that.
If you were standing face to face with someone who was debating you, would you reach over and slap them silly when they got the better of the argument? Would that be respectful? It is on of the hallmarks of bad debating style to threaten force when you can’t convince. And it’s disrespectful of your opponent and the audience who, one supposes, wish to actually hear the arguments for both sides. In a game with rules if a person cheats by finding an exploit, do you think it respectful? If a baseball player carried the bat around the bases clubbing the opposing team would you think that respectful? Or course not. But you wouldn’t think it disrespectful because it was against the rules, you would think it against the rules because it was disrespectful of the players and the game. You would think that if it were allowed instead of calling it “baseball” we would call it “basebrawl.”
So the question becomes, “do land claims in their current form” respect the players of Illyriad?
To “land claimers” land claims appear to be nothing but a technique or strategy to accomplish their goals.” They say, and have said, “don’t make such a big deal about it.” And if those effected by land claims in their current form, were just avatars floating across the screen, I could agree. But while land claims may appear to be, and are, good strategy, they are also very disrespectful of the players and the game.
Land claims disrespect the right of settlement every player has been granted by the developers. It takes away this without agreement amongst the players and thus is disrespectful of their desires and opinions. And that it does so through the use of intimidation by threats of coercion, only adds insult to injury.
But of course, land claiming players will say, it’s a “sandbox.” And it is “just a game.” And it is a “war game.” But these answers are based upon an immediate, simplistic, and unsophisticated view. If you glimpse Illyriad and don’t think to hard about it, it looks like “just a game.” It looks like a “war game.” And the sandbox looks like a place where you are allowed to do whatever you wish. And if the avatars you see with your two very real eyes, look just like pixels on a page, then you have no need to regard the real people behind the avatars. “Elves, dwarves, orcs and ‘humans’ in the game aren’t real, are they?” That is what a shallow view of any game will give you. But any game can be viewed as “just a game.” If you are playing Monopoly and the players you are facing are not real people, reach over and slap them silly if they start to win. They aren’t real people after all. At least that’s the story you must tell yourself if you need to justify something you wouldn’t and shouldn’t do to them if they were real people.
You wouldn’t do it in “real life” and the only way you can be disrespectful in Illyriad is by separating it from real life in a fantasy version in which you are the only real thing in the game….all other players are just being pixels on the page.
But of course, you know that behind every Stukahh, every Shogun, every Ajqtrz, every Pico, every Rill, every Kojak,
and every other of the many unnamed players, there is a person sitting, typing away, clicking on things and building or warring or trading his or her real time and talents to reach a goal in the game called Illyriad. And you know that you can treat them as mere objects in your immediate electronic environment or you can decide that the story you are weaving about how you achieved your goals can only be a winning story if you don’t stomp on real humans as you pass.
There is an ironic twist to all this that land claimers love to put forward. They say it is disrespectful for anyone to tell them they can’t play the game the way they wish But how they wish to play the game is by taking from all of us the right of settlement and by using their size to enforce their desires. It is never disrespectful to resist those who are trying to rob you. It is never disrespectful to rise up and stop those who are trying to take your rights. One is not required to respect bad behavior.
In the past this war over respect has played out over and over as players have come and gone. In the past the players of Illyriad have decided that the person playing is important. In the past they set up expectations about how real people will play the game. Noobs can’t be attacked without serious repercussions. The 10 square rule can include gathering and parking armies. And injustices and unjustified attacks are often dealt with because we understand intuitively that if we allow such behaviors we are allowing bullying. You can’t bully an avatar, but you can a real person In the past, and I think most of us today, understand this. And most of us, I believer reject the disrespect shown to all of us by the use of intimidation by threats of coercion, which is how the dictionary defines that awful word, “bullying.”
We want the game to be enjoyable and if we can make it enjoyable to more people, then so much the better. Of course it isn’t perfect and some injustices go unpunished, but that doesn’t mean they should be allowed. Disrespect, the kind that uses intimidation by threats of coercion, is not something that makes the game more enjoyable except to those who use it. Bullies often get a kick out of stomping on kids as they pass. Thus, because we are human, because humans want to be respected, and because bullying is not respecting the humans playing the game, land claims in their current form must be stopped.
Editorial by ajqtrz
Have an idea for an editorial? Feel free to contact the Times and we’ll consider it!

I can easily view Monopoly as “just a game” and send competitors into fiscal ruin while playing face to face. That is within the confines of those game mechanics. If it was allowable I’d crash the Reading Railroad through Atlantic Ave, sadly that is not allowable and I play within the confines of gameplay that was understood by everyone when starting the game. Much in the same way that Illy players should have an understanding that the freedom to do what you wish only extends as far as the army you have to back up your desires or ideals.
My views on land claims are no secret and I openly discuss them with anyone who asks. To call them bullies is crossing a line imo, if you were in a LC alliance would you think of Stomps as bullies for denying them the rights to carve out an area to call home and put up a fence? If a coalition came through and hit LC alliance members regardless of size and razed every city they could because they dislike their policies, would they become the bullies and the LC alliances become victims or would the situation be ideal since it would fit what you personally believe? This is reminiscent of the old adage “One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter”.
P.S. Sorry about the needlessly long reply.
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I find this to be a curious paradox. There are many peaceful creative games out there. The word “Farmville” got flung about a bit, but also games like SimCity, Minecraft and many others are not in any way inferior to Illy, have a rich creative aspect to the game, yet do not have the “uncivilized” player vs. player “violence” built into the game mechanics. However, I suspect that ajqtrz might not find such games as enjoyable, and here is why: without the element of PvP, there would be no need for the metagame as there is little player vs. player controversy. Thus, there would be no way for ajqtrz to get the same kind of spotlight that he has now gained in Illyriad.
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Seems like repeating one’s argument lots and lots of times, while ignoring any counter-arguments, makes you “get the better of the argument”. Interesting, civilized way of debate, quite popular with the bad kind of politicians (well, bad in my eyes, that is).
Also congratulations Illyriadtimes, you just proved the accusations of a bias (claiming you support land claims).. lalala!
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AJ if you want land claims stopped them why not join Stomps? Shut up or put up. I bet SIN and TVM would love for your cities to glow red for them.
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You keep repeating yourself on the forums and now here. You aren’t actually debating, but listening to yourself speak at this point. I agree with joda… I used to play Goldeneye with my highschool roommates, and I didn’t get upset when they shot me. That was the nature of the game. Illyriad involves building armies and using those armies to achieve one’s goals. As a player who doesn’t want to be in an involuntary war, my goal is to keep myself out of situations where people will want to siege me. This involves diplomacy, friendship making, and carefully measuring my responses to other people’s actions. The meta game in illy is closely tied to the actual game. I think ajq just hasn’t realized how to be good at playing a peaceful game in Illyriad.
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How many places do you want to bang on about this? You have numerous threads dedicated to your bullshit rhetoric in the illy forums, further your agenda there. I’d give you a shovel to dig yourself a deeper hole but it appears that you brought your own.
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Oh my !! It looks like AJ is winning more people over to his side. I think he should be considered an enemy combatant by the Claimers. Will someone please zero him already!!!
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Regardless of if you agree with his sentiments, remember he has already had one city razed by LC forces guys, its not like he isn’t all in…
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Land Claimers: If you wish to settle in the area we have claimed you have to be in our alliance. If you don’t want to be in our alliance you can settle somewhere else.
Anti – Land Claim; If you wish to settle anywhere in Elgea or Broken Lands you need to play the way we think is fair without land claims. If you don’t want to play with our version of fairness we’ll fight you.
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I like your point of view, it states that neither side is fair. Funny that, both sides believe that they are right and that the other side is wrong in their eyes. The bottom line though, to be simple and plain, is deal with it!
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Not really, one side wishes to control a small section, their neighborhood. The other wishes to control the world.
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I figured since everyone else were putting in a word, it would not hurt for me to do the same. While Aj’s constant rambling about bullying and intimidation grows longer and louder with each passing day, I would like to drop a few reminders. It is said that we( BB) are bullies for what we have done so far. Nobody cried out when PF and House Stark took us on even though we were way smaller than they, Now, I am not bashing PF, but what happened happened. We fought, we won, we made peace. Nobody cried bully when Aj started proclaiming that alliances should team up and remove land claimers. We DID call him a hypocrite, which is what he is. Because you just cannot threaten people with war without being threatening. @Aj: Nevertheless, at this point, instead of complaining, you should be doing either one of two things. And those are 1). mounting a decent siege and fighting for your rights via armies that the game allows for such things such as disputes; 2). thinking of a way to end this war peacefully before you lose yet more cities( and I assure you, you shall).
I’ll tell you a truth, you are my friend and nothing can change that except you renounce me as a friend.. One last truth, this is a game and the people that play it are real. We all knew what we were getting into when we each made our accounts. You know for a fact that many people migrated from the fall of LoU to join this game in hopes of another to replace their lost joy. As there was war in LoU, there is war here. Surely, you remember that even the minor wars of LoU would be more devastating then one city of Illy. Surely, you know that even though your alliance made it to the top with diplomacy, they carried behind them a rather large army ready to move all opposition. So do not feed me that crap you call logic, that garbage you call civility because i was there. There is a reason why the phrase “FIGHT for your rights” is used. Words are wind, and actions speak louder than words on any day. It is said that the pen may be mightier than the sword, but they both are wielded by an individual with the balls to do what needs doing. You test you pen against my sword, lo and behold, yet my sword prevails.
-Shogun
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Outstanding to see Myr putting her two cents in.
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siege UNIT!
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Alas, to reply to all this vitriol would be tedious. So I won’t. In stead I’ll attempt to make a couple of quick observations.
First, to be challenged about your basic assumptions regarding gaming, is not comfortable. I argued this same thing in LoU and find the same basic error here. We too often forget that while we are often trying to escape our current “real life,” we are entering the lives of hundreds of others and interacting with them. That humans play the game necessitates humane treatment in the game.
That I repeat\ my argument every chance I get, with different phrasing and perhaps even different logic, is not surprising and actually more effective. Often a phrase or different way of putting something speaks to one person more than another and even reveals a point of logic more effectively to one person than another. And repetition accomplishes that both by keeping the argument in front of the public eye AND, helping the one arguing to sharpen it’s effectiveness. The “I Have A Dream” speech by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was delivered in various forms and phrasing over 100 times before Dr. King arrived at the demonstration in Washington. Of course, my little argument is not on that scale and I’m not as eloquent, but the principle is the same. Keep addressing the subject at hand and learn from your communication what works and what does not.
While I respect Myr more than just about anybody in the game, her declarations that the anti and pro sides of the debate are both equally wrong (at least that’s how I read her comments), is sort of like saying, “If I get mad and try to defend myself when you try to take something from me, I’m equally wrong?” Bad behavior must be resisted and those who resist it are not engaged in bad behavior. Do the land claimers remove the right of settlement from part of Illy? (Yes!) Is that right of settlement coded into the game (Yes!). Are the land claimers therefore, taking something from the rest of us? (Yes!). Restoring that which is stolen to it’s rightful owner is not bad behavior but honorable. That the thieves think nothing of first thieving, and then protesting that they should have the right to thieve (outside the diplo attacks, of course) is the bad behavior here. I do suggest, Myr, that you ought to focus not on what is “fair” (a fuzzy concept at best), but what is respectful of other humans. Is it respectful to use force to take what you have not be given from those to whom it has been given?
Finally, though I could go on and refute a lot of silly stuff said in the comments, it would be nice if somebody actually discussed the argument presented. Do try to focus on the questions at hand: “Do the players of Ily deserve to be respected as human beings?, and if so, does intimidation by threats of coercion, respect them?”
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By large the players themselves get respected as hoomans… sometimes orcs don’t but they know why. There have been no threats to the humans themselves, just to the account they have created. You could argue they “own” these accounts that are being threatened because they spent the time, effort and sometimes money in making them but they don’t. Illyriad LLC owns everything on it so in a sense you could say their own digital property is attacking itself just with some others controlling it. The only loss for the person behind the avatar would be a loss of time and losing time while playing a game is not something that should be complained about.
So in regards to treating a player with respect I believe insulting them verbally (like calling them bullies or do-do heads ) could be seen as much worse than attacking a city because you don’t like where they put the it or saying “don’t move here”.
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I would like to thank the TIMES for allowing this guy to editorialize. He has shut down the forums with his logjam of words and now we have it here too.
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The argument as presented is that land claims represent bullying because they are an exercise in taking by force a right to free settlement that previously existed in Illyriad. There are a couple of points I would like to make about that.
1. The widely accepted and enforced 10-square rule is also an exercise in restricting the right to free settlement. It is true that this is an extension of a rule coded into the game, that prevents people from using the relocation spell and exodus from moving their towns to within 10 squares. However, the game as coded does not prevent the use of settlers to create a new town within 10 squares of an existing town. Only the player created 10-square rule prevents this.
This therefore qualifies as bullying under the definition used by ajqtrz, but he does not oppose the 10-square rule, so he is being logically inconsistent and his argument fails.
2. Is it really bullying, though? In my view, this depends on how the 10-square rule, or the land claim, is enforced. My limited experience of playing Illyriad teaches me that most players are open to negotiation on the question of both the 10-square rule and a land claim. It is often possible to settle within 10 squares of another player, or within a land claim zone, provided that you ask.
Further, there is a difference between immediately razing a town that transgresses on your 10-square rule, or land claim, and communicating with a player who has done so in order to provide assistance to them to relocate. I think that the former could be regarded as bullying, while the latter is not.
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The honey badger just don’t care. Bitten by a snake, honey badger don’t care. Called a bully when stealing the honey from the bee hive, honey badger don’t care.
On a sidenote, wanting to control, persuade and manipulate sounds as much offensive as bullying, threatening and coercing to me. A coin always got 2 sides.
This is such a drag…
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Aj, I disagree with your logic on this topic. The way we treat each other as players is evident in global chat where there are people who know how to behave and those who don’t. Just like real life. In GC you see people from opposite sides of the political spectrum talking, joking, asking about family and work, and generally getting along. You also see people on the same side of the political spectrum not getting along. Often those who don’t get along are even in the same alliance. When we step out of GC and play our characters it is PLAY, like any game. You need to have a separation between the two.
Now, notice that I said ‘I disagree with your logic’. I was not arrogant enough to say that the way you look at the subject is wrong, like you did to me in your rebuttal above. As your former alliance leader that is indicative of what I have come to expect from you in this game.
You ask: “Do the players of Ily deserve to be respected as human beings?, and if so, does intimidation by threats of coercion, respect them?”
To the first question I think you are the wrong person to ask. I and several of your instructors and alliance mates felt disrespected by you when you were a trainee in NS. If you want to go on a crusade about respect for human beings please take a look at your own interactions first.
To the second question: Is coercion not what you and STOMPS are doing? They want people who aren’t in their alliance to stay out of a certain area, you don’t respect their desire and are trying to coerce them to play the way you see fit. As someone above said there are two sides to every coin. The land claimers are keeping it as part of a game but you are trying to take it into real-life.
You ask: “Do the land claimers remove the right of settlement from part of Illy? (Yes!) Is that right of settlement coded into the game (Yes!). Are the land claimers therefore, taking something from the rest of us? (Yes!).”
By your logic everyone who has claimed a resource for their own use is taking something from the rest of us as the right to harvest resources is coded into the game. I have the ability to harvest silver steel so I should send troops at the holder of a silver steel mine because they have taken it from me. This doesn’t happen because control of parts of the map is desired by alliances and players and is reasonable. From what I have seen of the land claims the areas claimed are reasonable for the growth of an alliance and left plenty of room for other alliances and unaligned players. I hope it works for them as it’s a new dimension to the game that we were never able to fully explore in Elgea because of crowding. This is an old idea that many alliance leaders in the past have wanted to do and did as much as they could. Because all areas of the map were pretty well settled it wasn’t possible to do more than encourage your alliance to come to a certain area. The new map is a chance to do things differently and I think alliances that want to try it should have that right.
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Beautifully said, Myr. That’s all we want.
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Once when I was a kid we lived on a farm a long, long way from anywhere. We had a well and one day the pump died…so no water. Not having the money to replace the pump we started driving about 2 miles to our closer neighbor, filling some water jugs, and coming back once a day.
About two weeks into the hot summer I was walking along the creek and saw, dumped with a bunch of other garbage, a water pump. I pulled it up the steep bank and about 1/2 mile home. I showed it to my father who looked at it and decided that even if it did come from a dump it might have something useful in it. He replaced the power cable and plugged it in. It worked!
Now I ask you, since it came from a dump should my dad have automatically assumed it had no value? Myr, sound arguments are sound arguments even if the one issuing them is not always the best person for delivering them. I do think it odd that, being the leader of NS at the time, and having received so many complaints, you never said a thing to me. Odd behavior for a leader, don’t you think?
If you would re-read my posts on what STOMPS is attempting you would have read that you don’t reward the one who is robbing you by letting them do so. Any attempt to stop the thief is justified. And standing up to a bully is not bullying by the same logic. You ‘d that that didn’t have to be explained.
And you continue to make the same mistake of answering my question with what IS rather than what OUGHT to be. The problem is the logic is so straight forward that it’s pretty much impossible to deal with. Once you admit that real people are playing, and you are a moral person, you have to admit that real person should be treated with respect.
The question is not if STOMPS is being respectful, or if I’m being respectful, but if intimidation by threats of coercion is respectful to players. You seem to want to say that such disrespect is okay because it’s a game, but that’s just denying the conditional part of the opening question and thus not answering it at all. It’s a playground in which real people, represented by their avatars, engage in playful conduct….and sometimes unpleasant and disrespectful conduct. I’m out to change the disrespectful conduct as I see it.
The conditional part can be denied, but you would have to argue pretty strenuously (as Ashmandia tried) to get to the point were you believe that real people aren’t playing Illy but avatars are.
The real problem, in my estimate, is that nobody wants to DO wrong and when they find they might be doing so they try to squirm out of it by attacking the messenger, denying the logic, substituting definitions, and all sorts of things because they just can’t face up to the fact that they are DOING wrong. It takes a LOT of courage to admit you are wrong and a LOT of arguing to get people to do so.
What it doesn’t take is personal attacks, re-defining words to fit your comfort zone, and trying to deny reality…that people play Illy, avatars don’t.
So do try to discuss the subject of my editorial, not me. Sigh.
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Myr you could read the telephone book to me and I would listen intently. 🙂
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I have achieved a so high aj level of consiousness that i can already read his reply. lol
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Really? Great. Now just think about my reply and the logic of it. If you do it will lead you toward my side. You can’t deny the logic. (Which is, one supposes, why you keep trying to put down the one delivering the logic as if the logic can’t stand on it’s own.)
How about it, Ashmadia, how about putting forth some counter logic so we can take it point by point?
Are the players of Illy human? Real people?
Let’s start there.
AJ
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Sure, in the very end they are. Are the players of chess human? Real people?
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In re-reading Myr’s comments I find yet another error in logic. She claims that my position on land claims would mean, if I were consistent, that I would oppose every type of gathering because it would be taking something that is “owned” by all. Actually as I’ve said many times, my opposition to land claims is not about the claim but about the intimidation by threats of coercion. The bullying.
I suppose some people might try to claim all the herbs or minerals and threaten anyone who gathered “their” resources, but if they did, I’d oppose that too. Again, it’s not the land claims its the bullying used as a method of enforcement.
So do try to distinguish what I’m really arguing from what you imagine I’m arguing.
Real people are playing
Real people playing Illy should be respected
Land claims in their current form use intimidation by threats of coercion (the core definition of bullying) to bully real people.
Bullying real people is respectful of those people.
There, I’ve reduced it to 4 claims. Which one do you logically deny?
AJ
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Ok, i have a hard assignment for you aj. Give me a silversteel mine. Pretty please?
There are bullying armies all over them and i shall remind you of our previous conversation on the matter, back in NS, remember? When you had not written all those forum posts yet.
You replied that it was a “small” act of bullying versus the “big” act of bullying of land claims. You do recall saying that? What did you write here, that you oppose to every form of bullying? Get started then, you have A LOT of work to do with Illyriad as it is right now. Oh, and you might make some new enemies in the process, hm i calculate that you just made enemies with the whole community that plays by the 10-square rule and uses bullying armies to protect their harvests. Good thing that i m not playing by that rule yet, cheer up, we ‘re not enemies yet.
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oops, it should “Bullying real people is disrespectful of those people. LOL But you knew that.
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Waffles-“AJ have you lost weight? ” AJ-” Yep I am down two whole cities”
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Lots of games are played by real humans, and one of the things gamers seem to really enjoy is being in a different world for a bit. Not thinking of others as human can lead to some seriously rude behavior, such as real insults or real-life threats that can be dangerous and off-putting. Behavior like waging war or claiming land in a game that allows it, while maybe off-putting to some, is not dangerous and there is nothing wrong with it. Roleplaying can walk the line at times. Perhaps someone threatens to sack another’s city and put their head on a pike. Chilling! However, if all involved know it is in good fun and not a literal threat, then it shouldn’t make everyone think of the player making the threat as some sort of maniac who would do this in real life.
Savagely destroying someone in a game dates back to the dawn of games (as far as I know). I play long board games with friends often, and to their face I can and will wreck what they spent hours working towards. Recently I have been playing an online game of diplomacy that has taken months! Folks on there don’t feel disrespected when they can’t take over territory I am holding. They don’t feel disrespected when my armies wash over their defenses and capture their supply centers they have worked months to capture and defend. Instead they say “I’ll get you next time” and move on with life. Games are just that, no matter how much some may want them to be real extensions of life. Fantasy escapes let folks live lives they couldn’t otherwise, like leading vast armies or managing thriving cities. It doesn’t mean they are really doing it. This game is much more complex than diplomacy or monopoly, and it takes years, not hours or months, to play. The same principal applies though. Acting as if threats or coercion have no place in this game is just not true. Disagreement is fine, but acting like the LC humans playing the game are mean and disrespectful for playing a different way than you is asinine. These are humans on the other end, and their crime is playing a game in a way you don’t agree with. Running them through the mud as “bullies” is not cool, and has the potential to be emotionally damaging. Have some respect!
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Thank you for articulating this JTK, this is exactly how I feel. I am not about to pretend that we are a non-aggressive alliance “just claiming some territory for growth”. Broken Blades is a military alliance, and the land claim is part of our strategy. Threats of coercion may or may not take place; however, we can be flexible and do not pursue an exclusive join/leave/die policy. There is always room for negotiation.
I would like to use this comment to clarify our position. Ajqtrz’s vocal disagreement with land claims is not why we are at war with HIGH. There are plenty of people who disagree, and that is fine. We realize that LC have two sides, some players may feel restricted by them, and disagreements, conflicts, and wars may ensue. Rather, we have declared because AJ has been disrespectful to land claimers by taking a non-nuanced and inflexible stance that involves character assassination of us as a group of real people. We believe that an in-game move (war) was a more appropriate response than engaging in polemics, especially considering that pages after pages of forum posts in which other people have been debating AJ have accomplished nothing but the same circular responses from him. AJ has been calling on other alliances to go to war with us, unwilling to get himself involved, but we decided to address the conflict where it originated and took on his alliance directly.
We will gladly let AJ have peace on the only condition: an apology for characterizing land claimers as bullies and at least a good faith attempt to distinguish between in-game and RL behavior.
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